- Announcer

This is the Georgia Tech Research podcast presented by GTRI. Join us as we move forward, one research story at a time. The views represented in these interviews do not reflect the views of the organization. They are anecdotal views of individual experiences.

- Eric Klein

Welcome to the Georgia Tech Research podcast presented by GTRI. This podcast highlights research and opportunities around Georgia Tech and the Georgia Tech Research Institute. Today's episode, titled Beyond Compliance, is in recognition of the 50th anniversary of Section 504. This is the Rehabilitation Act, which became law in 1973. My name is Eric Klein and today's host is Denise Johnson Marshall.

- Denise Johnson Marshall

Hello, I'd like to welcome you to the Beyond Compliance podcast. I'm your host, Denise Johnson Marshall. I'm the Director of Equity and Compliance Programs, and I'm also the Institute ADA Coordinator. This podcast is a very special podcast for us at Georgia Tech because we are remembering 50 years of Section 504 of the Rehabilitation Act of 1973. And today's guest will help us in that celebration. So I want to introduce our guest for today is Dr. Richard Scotch. He's from the University of Texas at Dallas, and I'll let him introduce himself a little bit about what he's doing currently. And then we'll start to talk about the richness that is the Rehabilitation Act of 1973.

- Dr. Richard K. Scotch

Hello.

- Denise Johnson Marshall

Welcome, Dr. Scotch.

- Dr. Richard K. Scotch

Thank you very much. I appreciate the invitation and the opportunity to talk about Section 504. I'm a faculty member at the University of Texas at Dallas in the sociology program. Been doing research on disability issues since I was a graduate student back in the 1970s. My doctoral dissertation was a history of how Section 504 was developed, passed into law, and then how the regulations came to be issued after a series of demonstrations by disability activists. So I've been working on issues relating to disability and the rights of people with disabilities since I completed my degree. Currently published a book in 2020. My colleagues Allison Kerry and Pam Block and I on social movements of parents of people with disabilities, and we are working on an edited volume. Now, we've invited some of the parents to write chapters of their own for our new edited volume. I'm also working with a colleague, Sally Friedman, at the University of Albany, on political candidates with disabilities, what happens as they're campaigning and what happens as they're elected to office. I'll be glad to take your questions.

- Denise Johnson Marshall

Great, thank you so much for that. Was there anything in particular that led you to your interest in disability policy and the writing of your first book that some people may be a little bit more familiar with, From Goodwill to Civil Rights. And it was talking about the transforming a federal disability policy in this country.

- Dr. Richard K. Scotch

Well, I was attracted to the topic as a result of some work I was doing while a graduate student with a state agency in Virginia. I was part of a small evaluation group within the Virginia division for Children, and we were asked to monitor the implementation of the federal special education law, now called the Individuals with Disabilities Education Act, referred to as Education for All Handicapped Children Act. And as part of the project, I traveled around the state, talked to a number of advocates who were trying to get the law implemented, and they included a number of people who were then prominent in the disability rights movement. I was very impressed by them and intrigued by some of the tactics they were using and the arguments they were making. So when I went back to being a full time student to work on my doctoral dissertation, I decided to look at some aspect of disability rights because Section 504 was at that time had been implemented and there had been a series of demonstrations, political demonstrations around the country, seemed like a great focus for my dissertation. So, I completed that work 1982 and went on, turned it into a book.  And I have been studying disability policy and disability rights since then.

- Denise Johnson Marshall

Thank you for that. Let's take a break from this podcast to listen to more about departments that we want you to get to know.

- Kendra Brown

Get to Know the Office of Equity and Compliance Programs. The Office of Equity and Compliance Programs is here to educate, identify, and illuminate systemic and institutional barriers to equity and inclusion at Georgia Tech; while creating a culture beyond compliance. Our office provides support and investigates matters involving accessibility compliance issues. These issues can include physical or digital accessibility barriers on campus disability discrimination, sexual harassment, and sexual violence. Additionally, we provide resources to pregnant and parenting individuals. As a part of our mission to educate the campus community about our office and the work that we do, we offer a series of trainings and workshops. This is to ensure that our campus partners have the tools to support the institutional strategic plan of expanding access and creating a diverse, equitable and inclusive environment. We invite you to collaborate with us as we work together to build a better Georgia Tech. To learn more or submit a report of compliance issues, visit our website at https://diversity.gatech.edu/equity-compliance .

- Denise Johnson Marshall

Now that you know a little bit more, it's time to get back to the podcast with Dr. Richard Scott. Since that time, when you think about higher education, oftentimes we think of immediately the Americans with Disabilities Act ADA. But there was a precursor to that. There was legislation, as you mentioned before, section 504, one of the things that we're celebrating the anniversary for, and it has an impact on higher education, especially an institution like Georgia Tech. So can you talk a little bit about what led up to the signing of Section 504 and the other sections as well? Just some of those demonstrations that you mentioned and some of the groups that helped to bring this forward?

- Dr. Richard K. Scotch

Sure, I'd be glad to. Section 504 was written into the reauthorization of the Rehabilitation Act. Federal laws generally have to be reauthorized every so often. The Rehabilitation Act was actually first passed in 1920, right after World War I, and had been reauthorized and changed every five to ten years. And it created the Vocational Rehabilitation Program, which is a partnership between states and the federal government to provide rehabilitation services to people with disabilities. But by the late 1960s and early 1970s, the people involved with rehabilitation nationally were coming to understand that there was more than simply an absence of training that was impeding people from becoming employed and participating more broadly in society. There were barriers, there were architectural barriers, and there were barriers of attitudes. As the law was going through the legislative process in 1972, the idea came up to try to include in it a provision that would bar discrimination against people with disabilities, including higher education and elementary and secondary education, by any recipient of federal financial assistance. And that was based on title six of the Civil Rights Act of 1964 that was enacted to protect African Americans from discrimination, that linked the civil Rights Act that protected African Americans to this new civil rights provision that protected people with disabilities.

Some of the staff in the United States Senate on the committee that was working on this legislation added some language that was borrowed from title six of the 1964 act that prohibited discrimination on the basis of disability in any program receiving federal financial assistance. Ultimately, Congress prevailed, and President Nixon signed the act into law on September 26, 1973. After a law is passed, usually federal agencies develop regulations explaining how the law should be applied and implemented. Responsibility for drafting regulations was turned over to what was then the Department of Health, Education and Welfare. As that department had to develop these regulations was who should write the regulation. But because it was a civil rights law, a civil rights provision, rather than sending it to the usual people who worked on rehabilitation issues in the department, it was turned over to the Office of Civil Rights, who were typically involved in making sure that federal protections for people of color are upheld. So they took a rather proactive or aggressive stance in terms of defining what kinds of rights were protected by this law and what the responsibility of entities receiving federal financial assistance would be to protect those rights.

They also partnered with some advocates from the disability community, advocates who were trying to promote the rights of people with disabilities, the rights for participation and inclusion. There was a lot of consultation back and forth between these outside disability advocates, attorneys in the civil rights office of HEW, and together they came up with fairly extensive set of regulations, presented them to the leadership of the department. The leader of that department at that time was someone who was hesitant to accept these proposed regulations, and Secretary Matthews was concerned that something that more fairly assertively established rights for people with disabilities might compromise some of the charity programs, benefiting people. He basically did nothing waiting till after the election of 1976, when President Ford was defeated by Jimmy Carter. Carter came into office. He had committed, as part of his campaign to approve the regulations for Section 504. But his secretary of Health, Education and Welfare, a man named Joseph Califano, had some of the same concerns that his predecessor, David Matthews, had. He thought it might be too radical. He thought it might be too disruptive. So he asked for further study of these regulations, which had now been drafted two years before.

This was quite concerning to disability activists, who were quite frustrated that this law had been passed in 1973. Here it was 1977, and the law had still not been put into effect. They actually filed a lawsuit. They also organized a series of demonstrations at federal offices, particularly in Washington, DC. And in San Francisco. At the federal HEW office, these were demonstrations by people with disabilities. They went in in San Francisco and Washington into the offices and sat down and refused to leave until the regulations were signed by the secretary. The Washington group only stayed overnight and left. But in San Francisco, the protesters stayed for a total of 28 days. This included people who were blind, people who were deaf, people who used wheelchairs, people with a variety of other kinds of physical and mental impairments. And this became quite a matter of public discussion. No one had. While there had been demonstrations by disabled people before going back to the 1940s, actually, this was really the first notice in the national media of the grievances by the people with disabilities. So they got a very wide range of support in their demonstrations. Members of Congress stated issues of support. Some of the local officials stated issues of support. A number of groups advocating for civil rights, of other groups, of other people who were marginalized expressed support, including the Black Panther Party, who brought food into the demonstrators, stayed for 28 days. Ultimately, Secretary Califano signed the regulations that had been developed. The result of this process I mentioned earlier, those regulations went into effect, and Section 504 became the law of the land, and that affected any institution that was receiving federal support, which included colleges and universities, as well as hospitals, local governments, local nonprofits, anyone who was getting any kind of federal aid.

- Denise Johnson Marshall

That's a great synopsis. We don't hear about the different types of demonstrations that went on enough to know that that occurred and that was important to that many groups and to have that many advocates for the groups as well. Let's take a break from this podcast to listen to more about departments that we want you to get to know.

- Kendra Brown

Get to know GT, Human Resources, Employee Relations at Georgia Tech. Individuals with disabilities have an equal opportunity to pursue education or employment and to have access to campus programs, activities, and services. If you are an employee or visitor and you have a disability and need assistance, we are here to help. The purpose of Georgia Tech Human Resources Employee Relations is to one, coordinate, facilitate and monitor the Interactive Reasonable Accommodation Process, or RA plan, which may assist qualified employees in performing the essential functions of their position. And two coordinate. Georgia Tech compliance with the employment requirements of the Americans with Disabilities Act, or ADA, and with other related laws, policies and procedures. And three, ensure qualified persons with disabilities have full and equal access to all terms and conditions of employment, regardless of disability and four, educate staff on their rights and responsibilities under the Americans with Disabilities Act and provide technical assistance as needed. For more information, please visit our website at https://ohr.gatech.edi/disability-services or email us at employee-relations@ohr.gatech.edu that's employee-relations at OHR.GATECH.edu.

- Denise Johnson Marshall

Now that you know a little bit more, it's time to get back to the podcast with Dr. Richard Scotch, University of Texas, Dallas. Are there any resources that you would recommend to our listeners if they wanted to know more about the people and the events that were happening during that time?

- Dr. Richard K. Scotch

If any of the listeners for this are interested, there are a number of recordings of statements by the protesters. One of the more recent ones, which I recommend to everyone, is the film Crip Camp. Crip camp, which tells the main story of which is about a summer camp where a lot of disabled youth attended who got to know one another and that sort of served as the basis for some of the groups of disability advocacy that got started back in the ’60s and ’70s. One of the people featured in the film is a woman named Judy Human, who some people call the mother of the disability rights movement. She was a disabled activist from New York City who graduated from Long Island University and had to sue the city of New York in order to get a license to be a schoolteacher because she was a polio survivor and used a wheelchair. Some people thought that someone who used a wheelchair couldn't possibly control a classroom or teach school. Judy sued them and they hired her. Then she ultimately went on to found an organization in New York called Disabled in Action and then moved out to Berkeley and got her master's there. She was actually an intern on Capitol Hill and helped to draft the Individuals with Disabilities and Education Act and went on to head the World Institute on Disability in Oakland, along with Ed Roberts and other prominent disability advocates. There's a lot of connection among all these issues. Section 504 really brought attention to the exclusion of people with disabilities.

- Denise Johnson Marshall

Absolutely. Usually, when people hear about Section 504, they connect it a lot with K through twelve. Don't realize that it still has implications in the higher education arena as well but there are other sections of the Rehabilitation Act of 1973. Can you talk briefly about some of the other sections and why we may focus on 504 a little bit more?

- Dr. Richard K. Scotch

The Rehabilitation Act was reauthorized in 1973. In addition to Section 504, there were several other provisions related to civil rights. One of them required that the federal government not discriminate on the basis of disability. And that was important because the federal government is a major employer and Section 504 only applies to outside non-federal agencies that receive federal financial assistance. It also required that federal contractors that anyone who did business with the federal government had to not discriminate on the basis of disability. And it also used the term affirmative action. But it said that organizations had to practice affirmative action that they had to proactively try to include people with disabilities in their activities. Those were some of the provisions in the original Title Five and the Rehabilitation Act passed in 1973. There were some subsequent provisions added. Probably the most important one is one that required that all telecommunications systems be designed in ways that would include people with disabilities. That established demands which became much more relevant as we became much more dependent on computers and telecommunications. For example, computers be designed in ways that people who were blind could use the computer which became a problem actually not so much in the early days when computers were text based. But as Windows visual interfaces became standard on computers it often meant that people who were blind had less access, less ability to use the computer than they had in the earlier versions of computer. So that telecommunications provision added some requirements that protected not just people with visual impairments but anyone who had trouble dealing with some of the interfaces. It also required that for people who have hearing impairments, they set up what were called relay systems. So that if I had a hearing impairment and I wanted to call someone to get some information, could call a special number and have use my telecommunications device that was text based, I could type it in and then someone would then call and relay the message orally, back and forth. So it allowed people who were deaf to use telecommunications devices. Telecommunications now in the 21st century is substantially different from what it was 40 or 50 years ago. The idea that we need to design technology, including telecommunications devices, in ways that are inclusive, really came out of that part of the Rehabilitation Act. And it really highlights something we call universal design the idea that we should try to design products or processes, for that matter, that include as many people as possible.

Sometimes in disability studies we differentiate between what we call the medical model of disability and the social model of disability. The medical model focuses on people's impairment. If you can't walk or you can't see or you can't read because of, say, the way your brain is wired, that is seen as a problem of the individual. The social model focuses more on the environment within which people with disabilities operate. If you can't walk upstairs, you could say that's the problem of the individual because they can't climb stairs, or you could say it's a problem of the way the building was designed, that it doesn't include people who can't climb stairs, that it should have ramps or it should have elevators. If we think about books, if a book is simply accessed visually, then people who are blind can't use it. We could see that as a problem of a person who is blind, but we could also see it as a problem of how the book was created. And so these days we can create books quite easily that can provide information in ways other than visually, which can allow people with different learning styles or people with visual limitations so that they can access the book. So the idea of universal design is that we need to think about our environment. Whether it's how we build our houses, whether it's how we build a computer or a book, whether it's how we design processes within organizations. It promotes the participation of as many people as possible, regardless of their physical or mental way of functioning. About 20 years ago, the census was trying to figure out how to ask a good question to measure disability. They did some focus groups with people with disabilities to ask them how they would define disability. And they said it's not that we have deficits, it's that we learn to do things differently because our bodies work differently in that way. Disability can be seen not simply as a limitation or a deficit, but as a source of creativity and innovation, as an ability to figure out different ways of performing everyday tasks, to be more inclusive of everyone in society. And so having computers whose screens can be read by people who are blind, buildings, the upper floors of which can be accessed by people who use wheelchairs or even restrooms, that can accommodate people in a wheelchair, that allows more people to use different public facilities or to participate just more broadly in social and civic life.

- Denise Johnson Marshall

Absolutely. And I think that building a better ecosystem is the way to make sure that your environment is accessible to all. Let's take a break from this podcast to listen to more about departments that we want you to get to know.

- Kendra Brown

Get to Know the Office of Disability Services for Students the Office of Disability Services, or ODS, collaborates with students, faculty and staff to create a campus environment that is usable, equitable, sustainable and inclusive of all members of the Georgia Tech community. If students encounter academic, physical, technological or other barriers on campus, the Disability Services team collaborates with the students to find creative solutions and reasonable accommodations. ODS, located in the Smith Gall Student Services Building, also known as the Flag Building Suite 123 is passionate about providing support and resource information for students with disabilities at the Institute. For more information, visit our website at https://disabilityservices.gatech.edu or email us at dsinfo@gatech.edu . That's dsinfo at GATECH.edu.

- Denise Johnson Marshall

Now that you know a little bit more, it's time to get back to the podcast with Dr. Richard Scotch. Thinking about the ADA. As I mentioned before, everyone's immediate thought is the Americans with Disabilities Act ADA, with Section 504 being the precursor that kind of laid the groundwork. If you're looking at it from a disability policy standpoint, what are the differences between the two, if it's a compare contrast type of thing? Or how does the ADA build upon what Section 504 laid as the groundwork?

- Dr. Richard K. Scotch

Section 504 laid a conceptual foundation, an approach for regulation that was adopted by the Americans with Disability Act in 1990. When it was passed, the people who drafted the ADA were very aware of Section 504. They didn't use the exact wording, but they used much of the same wording to describe how organizations the ADA applies much more broadly than Section 504. It goes beyond just recipients of federal financial assistance. It includes private businesses; it includes public accommodations. But the basic principles that the environment needs to be constructed in a way that accommodates all different kinds of people is one taken directly from Section 504. Another aspect of the ADA that builds on Section 504, which in turn builds on some of the earlier civil rights laws passed in the 1960s, is that you can't accommodate people with disabilities because it's too expensive. We don't say we're not going to include racial minorities because it's too expensive. If you are discriminating, if you are excluding people, you need to stop. That's the legal theory underlying Section 504. That was the legal theory under riding the Civil Rights Act of 1964, and that's the legal theory underlying the ADA.

You might adjust how much resources can be devoted to making things more accessible based just on the reasonableness a big organization can obviously spend a lot more to become accessible than a very small organization. The idea of reasonable accommodation is a term used in the regulations for Section 504 and is also used in the statute for the Americans with disability. The idea that organizations need to be as accommodating as they can, given the sort of scale of the organization. So a state government or a large corporation, we might have higher expectations than a small business about accessibility. Although there has been some research on the Ada that suggests that most of the accommodations that have been mandated by the ADA, that most of them are relatively minor, that the average request for accommodation under the ADA is about $500. Now, that study was done a while ago, so it might be a little higher now. When you think of the cost of hiring and retaining employees, $500 is not that much money. It might involve changing the height of a workspace, for example, or widening stalls in a restroom. It's not huge amounts of money.

Similar research, and one of the leading figures in this was a guy named Peter Blank, who's affiliated with Syracuse University. The findings was that the average just is incidental for most large employers shouldn't be considered a barrier. The biggest problem with implementing Section 504 and with implementing the Americans with Disabilities Act is that many people who aren't disabled themselves just don't think about disability. They don't think to be inclusive. There's a great potential as people are educated and as we see the benefits of including all kinds of people, whether in a business or in a university or just in public life in general, that there are huge benefits and fairly modest costs involved. And while there are still some who are digging their heels and oppose inclusion, including at some college campuses where instructors or people who design buildings may not want to be inclusive when those adjustments and policies or practices or physical arrangements are adjusted, really everyone benefits. The ADA built on the experience with Section 504. There were some adjustments made with the ADA because of how Congress had drafted the law. That led to some changes subsequently to try to make sure that the courts would uphold them. They've been generally successful at making facilities more accessible. Most colleges, most schools are now more inclusive than they were. But it also means that we have to be flexible and we have to be committed to not just some kind of rote compliance, but as you say beyond compliance. We have to really proactively think about how we can include more people. One of the things about disability is that it has tremendous variability. That people with similar kinds of physical impairments often find different ways of navigating the things they have to do in their life. Different blind people. Some may use canes and some may use service dogs, and some may navigate in other ways. Some deaf people may rely on sign language, and others may prefer to use real time captioning. There are other new technological devices to enhance accessibility. There's a lot of variability. I always tell my colleagues that the best way to find out how to accommodate somebody with a disability is to ask them, because they may have their own particular style of functioning in the world. Asking them is a much better way than trying to anticipate their needs. It's often more efficient too, because it's sometimes the case it's many times the case that fairly simple modifications can allow people to participate more effectively. Being aware requires a kind of mindfulness about how you want to function and who you want to include that may make life a lot easier for everyone and guarantee a more diverse set of students or workers or customers in various settings.

- Denise Johnson Marshall

Thank you for those thoughts. Disability is definitely a cross-cultural phenomenon. Regardless of race, class, economic status, disability is the one thing that crosses over all of those different barriers. Let's take a break from this podcast to listen to more about departments that we want you to get to know.

- Kendra Brown

Get to Know the Center for Inclusive Design and Innovation. The Center for Inclusive Design and Innovation, also known as CIDI, is housed within the College of Design at Georgia Tech. The accessibility experts at CIDI have decades of experience in user centered accessibility research and delivery of services to help individuals with disabilities. CIDI's overall mission is to improve the human condition through equal access to technology based and research driven information services and products for individuals with disabilities. With its rich history of providing accessible solutions to an underserved community, CIDI has positioned itself as a leader in accessibility and inclusion. CIDI is committed to promoting technological innovation and addressing unmet needs by providing accessible and inclusive environments for all. Maintaining dynamic partnerships with universities, state agencies, publishers, nonprofit groups, and corporations allows CIDI to continue to expand its expertise and further advocate for accessibility in Georgia, across the country, and internationally. For more information about CIDI, you can visit their website at www.cidi.gatech.edu . Or you can contact their customer support team by phone at 404-894-7756.

- Denise Johnson Marshall

Now that you know a little bit more, it's time to get back to the podcast with Dr. Richard Scotch, University of Texas, Dallas. Any final thoughts on the anniversary, the 50th anniversary of Section 504 that you can leave our listeners with?

- Dr. Richard K. Scotch

We still have a long way to go. While more buildings are accessible, while more technology is accessible, the lagging factor here is often people's attitudes. And it's not that people are hostile toward people with disabilities, but for the most part, people welcome their participation. They just need more information. There's a kind of virtuous circle here that the more people with disabilities participate in society, the more we all understand about how to enhance their participation and the more open we are to new strategies to promote their participation. While we still have a long way to go. And there are many people who experience tremendous frustrations in trying to participate in a world that doesn't seem designed very well to accommodate them, there's a great potential for further change, but it requires sort of an overall commitment. It's not that you can simply build a ramp and you solve the problem. It's that you always have to be thinking as you're rebuilding something or as you're designing a process, say an admissions process at a college. You always have to be aware of the fact that people may be using that process in somewhat different ways because of the way they learn things or the way they acquire information, or the way they get from one place to another.

But if we keep that in mind, often the changes that are required are not terribly expensive, are not terribly disruptive. And can be truly beneficial to everyone. So I guess those are my closing comments.

- Denise Johnson Marshall

Dr. Scott, it has been my pleasure to talk with you today, and we greatly thank you for your time and being our first guest on the Beyond Compliance podcast.

- Dr. Richard K. Scotch

Well, thank you very much again, and I hope that everyone has gotten a little more information about some of these laws from the distant past, but how they are still very relevant to our lives today in 2023. So thanks again for inviting me, and I wish you great success for this commemoration of Section 504 history.

- Denise Johnson Marshall

Thank you so much, Georgia Tech. We invite you to attend some of the other events for the 50th anniversary for Section 504. We have some workshops that are coming up. We have a research showcase that's coming up on October the 20th, and we invite you to come out to that as well. And also watch your email because we're sending out nominations for 50 Advocates for Accessibility. We like to honor the people who do the work on our campus and how they change the lives of people with disabilities. So please nominate your neighbor, your friend, anyone at Georgia Tech who's been working really hard for accessibility. We'd love to see it, and we'd love to hear about them, and we'd love to honor them. You can also nominate yourself or nominate a department, a collective, a group, an organization. Anyone who is at Georgia Tech is eligible for this award, please come out and visit our website at diversity.gatch.edu/section-504-at-50. For more on the history of the Rehabilitation Act of 1973 and all of our events, and sign up for a workshop and nominated Advocate for Accessibility.

- Announcer

And thanks to everyone joining us for this episode. For more information on this episode's guest and additional resources, check out the show notes for this episode, and feel free to contact us via email at podcast@GTRI.gatech.edu. If you aren't aware already, please note that the Georgia Tech Research Podcast is now available on Apple Podcast, Google Podcast, and Spotify. Tell your colleagues and others who might be interested in Georgia Tech research to subscribe and tune in.